[New Archetype System] Class Sub-features should allow over lap

Description

From what I have read, the way archetypes are dealt with or coded in PCGen have been updated or changed. Before in PCGen you could select certain Archetypes and make them apply to your character even though they had overlapping changed/altered class features. This is referenced in and DATA-2539. For the Magus, you should be able to apply the archetypes Bladebound and Kensai at the same time. src[Ultimate Magic]

I am not sure if the error is in the new system, or the system is new and there has not been a complete pass on all the archetypes yet for all the classes.

When you apply Bladebound first, the requirements that turn red for Kensai are
"
either ( at least 1 Magus Archetype ~ Kensai Archetype, none of ( Magus_Archetype_SpellRecall=True, Magus_Archetype_KnowledgePool=True, Magus_Archetype_Proficiencies=True, Magus_Archetype_Arcana=True, Magus_Archetype_ImprovedSpellRecall=True ) )
"
and for the reverse order
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either ( at least 1 Magus Archetype ~ Bladebound Archetype, none of ( Magus_Archetype_ArcanePool=True, Magus_Archetype_Arcana=True ) )
"
I don't know any code but from what I learned, if the words are red it means you do not have the requirement.

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Andrew Maitland
September 21, 2015, 4:33 PM

Hi,

PCGen strives to abide by the published rules. I pretty much wrote most of the archetype code back in 2010 I want to say, and discovered a serious flaw in how it was applied - i.e. your overlap, since the same system was handling two aspects of the rules (What to remove, and what to not allow). I took steps to correct that as you correctly referenced.

The rules for archetypes are pretty clear. Any archetype that ALTERS or touches a class feature cannot have another archetype that alters or touches that same feature. i.e. no overlap.

APG on page 72 states:
A character can take more than one archetype and
garner additional alternate class features, but none of
the alternate class features can replace or alter the same
class feature from the core class as another alternate
class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both
a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both
modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the
aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however,
be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy
light, since none of their new class features replace the
same core class feature.

Your Kensai alters the Class Feature "Magus Arcana" by removing the level 9 selection, while the Bladebound alters the Class Feature "Magus Arcana" by removing the level 3 selection. Same class feature, different progressions, no overlap allowed.

Andrew Maitland
September 21, 2015, 4:36 PM

System is working as intended. Bug report would cause a Publisher Rules violation - won't implement.

42nfl19
September 21, 2015, 9:47 PM

" Archetype Stacking and Altering: What exactly counts as altering a class feature for the purpose of stacking archetypes?

In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.
posted Jun 19, 2015 | back to top"

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9thg

Correct me if I am wrong but Magus Arcana would be the parent class feature. The 2 archetypes modify two different subfeatures i.e. the Arcanas gained at different levels. If I am to understand this FAQ from Paizo, it would be legal to have Kensai and Bladebound together. These two archetypes have been comboed online from several users and this is the first time I have heard that these archetypes should not be able to overlap.

Andrew Maitland
September 21, 2015, 10:17 PM

I looked for a ruling before I implemented this... That is irksome to say the least.

Well, now to dismantle 20+ hours of work.

Fixed

Assignee

Andrew Maitland

Reporter

42nfl19

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Source Books

PF - Ultimate Magic

Epic/Theme

None

Pending User Input

No

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Affects versions

Priority

Minor