Bloodrager Draconic Claws not right

Description

Odd combination but shows a problem.

Winter Wolf - Bite is sole Natural Attack (Bite) which correctly gets 1.5 Str to damage.
so...
Add Bloodrager 3, Draconic Bloodline (adds claws while raging).
Per rules: The Claws mean he has 3 Natural Attacks, so loses the special privilege of 1.5 Str Dam, but they are all 3 Primary, so full Str.

1) the claws are always active, even when not raging (but p.16 "Unless otherwise specified, he gains the effects of his bloodline powers only while in a bloodrage")
2) changing bloodline does not remove the claws
3) despite changing bloodline, I can still add, and change Draconic Bloodline Type (colour)
4) I can't change back to Draconic bloodline (presumably because the sub-type (colour) is still attached?)
5) Power Attack is great for a raging monster. With a sole Bite, Power Attack is correctly adding the 2H 1.5*Dam bonus (so Wolf 6, Bloodrager 3 is -3/+6 normally, -3/+9 for 2H)
But when there are claws, the Power Attack is still 2H only, despite the Str bonus dropping to 1H

Doesn;t matter whether I add Power Attack before or after adding Claws, he still is only able to add Power Attack (2H).

Since Raging Claws are a temp. bonus, I really want to be able to select whether I add Power Attack 1H or 2H to get the right bonus?

Environment

Pathfinder core ruleset

Activity

Show:
Saxum Caribetum
December 27, 2019, 12:04 PM

 

So, let’s address the rules issue:

1. Dragon Claws are permanent, they are not specified as bloodraging only, like many of the other powers.

 

I was relying on ACG p.16 last para “…Unless otherwise specified, he gains the effects of his bloodline powers onlu while in a bloodrage; once the bloodrage ends, all powers from his bloodline immediately cease, and any physical changes the bloodrager underwent revert, restoring him to normal.”

d20pfsrd.com has the same text:

Bloodrager Bloodlines

When a bloodrager enters a bloodrage, he often takes on a physical transformation influenced by his bloodline and powered by the magic that roils within him. Unless otherwise specified, he gains the effects of his bloodline powers only while in a bloodrage; once the bloodrage ends, all powers from his bloodline immediately cease, and any physical changes the bloodrager underwent revert, restoring him to normal.

 

cf Draconic, “Power of Wyrms (Su): At 20th level… You have these benefits constantly, even while not bloodraging.” - an example of the “otherwise specified” bit.

Claws are like the 4th level Aberrant “Abnormal Reach” - they come with the rage, and revert at end.

That’s a rules interpretation. I thought it was clear, but it appears others read differently.

 

2. Yeah, takes a full reload, adding Spells/Natural Attacks doesn’t refresh instantly in PCGen.

Ah! that probably explains most of my subsequent problems. It’s not always obvious when a full-reload is needed.

3. Not sure what bug you’ve uncovered, but if I can’t test, I can’t debug.

so, without reloading, I had tried removing the Draconic Bloodline.

If you add Draconic Bloodline, then remove it, the option to choose a Draconic Bloodline Type remains and is still active.

 

4. No idea. Sounds like you broke something internal and have triggered a nasty NPE in your error log.

still without reloading… if you Add Draconic Bloodline, then remove it, then you cannot undo the mistaken removal and add it back.

Presumably a full reload solves the problem - will try.

5. Not sure, you like making all the crazy combos that aren’t normally rules legal, and probably have a bunch of errors that I don’t have before me to review. Rule of thumb, once you break PCGen capture the log and submit. Anything done after that point is null and void.

this one is down to “if you have one Primary Natural Attack, then the Str bonus is 1.5*Str instead of 1*Str”, and I had assumed was just based on counting the number of Natural Attacks. Again, I’ll try a Full Reload.

 

OK, so restart.

Winter Wolf, Warrior 3.

1,2,5) Add Bloodrager 1. Save, Reload. Look at character. Has Bite, Claws, both at 1*Str. Claws are always on, no option to rage.

3) after reload, remove Draconic Bloodline. but Draconic Bloodline Type remains. Save, close, reload. Draconic Bloodline Type has now gone.

4) after remove and reload, I can re-add Draconic Bloodline.

so - all is down to “you must reload the character immediately after adding some options, but not all options, and it’s not obvious which options require a reload.

I think you can close this.

 

If I want to press the issue of Bloodline Claws are always on, I’d have to raise a new issue, but

  • it’s clearly complex and related to the formula engine.]

  • I’m guessing it affects all Bloodrager bloodlines.

  • the absence of a Rage temp. ability for Bloodrager means they depend on always-on as a substitute.

  • PCGen is cooling down to on-hold…

So I guess I’ll leave it for now.

(Besides the character ended up as a Skald instead…)

 

Thank you for your efforts.

 

Andrew Maitland
December 28, 2019, 2:55 AM

Abyss Claws: Claws (Su): At 1st level, you grow claws while bloodraging. < Pretty explicit to me.

versus

Dragon Claws: Claws (Su): At 1st level, you grow claws.

So, are you saying I need to disable all the rest of the bloodline powers that don’t have an explicit doesn’t go away?

Draconic Resistance (Ex): At 4th level, you gain resistance 5
against your energy type and a +1 natural armor bonus to AC.
At 8th level, your energy resistance increases to 10 and your
natural armor bonus increases to +2. At 16th level, your natural
armor bonus increases to +4.
Breath Weapon (Su): At 8th level, you gain a breath weapon
that you can use once per day. This breath weapon deals
1d6 points of damage of your energy type per bloodrager
level. Those caught in the area of the breath can attempt a
Ref lex saving throw for half damage. The DC of this save is
equal to 10 + 1/2 your bloodrager level + your Constitution
modifier. The shape of the breath weapon depends on your
dragon type (as indicated on the above table). At 16th level,
you can use this ability twice per day. At 20th level, you can
use this ability three times per day.

versus these guys:

Dragon Wings (Su): At 12th level, when entering a
bloodrage, you can choose to have leathery wings grow
from your back, giving you a f ly speed of 60 feet with average
maneuverability. At 16th level, your f ly speed increases to
80 feet with good maneuverability.
Dragon Form (Su): At 16th level, when entering a bloodrage,
you can choose to take the form of your chosen dragon
type (as form of the dragon II, but with average or good
maneuverability, as you would gain from the dragon
wings bloodrage power above).

To be honest, I don’t care a whit, but inconsistent rules and wording irks me as it’s open to blind interpretation. By your earlier rule, none of these stay expect the 20th level power.

Anyways, I’ll disable all of those powers for you unless you are actively bloodraging.

Andrew Maitland
December 28, 2019, 3:17 AM

And yes, there is a Rage active var for Bloodragers. It’s activated when you enter a rage for the stat boosts.

Andrew Maitland
December 28, 2019, 3:29 AM
Andrew Maitland
December 28, 2019, 3:32 AM

I’ll merge that in tomorrow. Anyways, all powers aforementioned will no longer show up unless you are ACTIVELY raging.

Fixed

Assignee

Andrew Maitland

Reporter

Saxum Caribetum

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PF - Core Rule Book
PF - Advanced Class Guide

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